Idea Support for Jyutping Cantonese Romanization

Discussion in 'Feature Requests' started by lechuan, Dec 3, 2019.

  1. lechuan

    lechuan New Member

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    Hi Matt!

    I was wondering if it would be possible to support the Jyutping ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyutping ) romanization system for Cantonese.

    Jyutping was developed by the Linguistic Society of Hong Kong. Is is used in more and more in newer apps (Drops, Pleco), websites (Chinese Class 101), and books on learning Cantonese (A shortcut to Cantonese, Learn to speak Cantonese), etc. It also makes better distinction in spelling to differentiate different sounds (whereas Yale tends to sometimes use the same spelling for different sounds).

    I'm currently learning Cantonese, and finding it a challenge switching back and forth between the more modern learning materials that use Jyutping, and the more traditional materials that use Yale.

    Would it be possible to support Jyutping? I'd be happy to help out in this regard if I can (I currently develop web applications and have dabbled in mobile development), or even just help with the conversion tables between Yale and Jyutping.

    Thanks!
    Alexis
     
  2. iMatt

    iMatt Administrator Staff Member

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    Did you mean something like this? :)

    Simulator Screen Shot - iPhone 7 Plus - 2019-12-30 at 15.28.07.png

    Should it look so similar to Sidney Lau? Just one tone difference I think maybe?
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2019
  3. lechuan

    lechuan New Member

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    Hi Matt!

    Nice! Jyutping does indeed look quite similar to Sidney Lau. However, there are a couple difference in tones, 3 differences in initials, 16 differences in finals, and additional 5 finals that exist only in Jyuting (however, don't need to worry about these as they are used mainly for a few spoken Cantonese characters that are not present in the Chinese Bible.

    I put together a Google Sheet to show the differences between the 3 systems.

    The main differences in tones between Jyutping and Sidney Lau is:
    • Tone numbers are usually written in regular type (not a superscript). ie. Sing3-ging1
    • tone in Sidney Lau is 1 in Jyutping
    Please let me know if any questions. Thank you so much for considering this! If possible, this would be really helpful, and much appreciated!

    Thanks!
    Alexis

     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2020
  4. iMatt

    iMatt Administrator Staff Member

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    The main thing that will help is a specific verse or verses that I can look at and verify that everything is working ok. If you can provide a verse and what it should look like that would be good.
     
  5. lechuan

    lechuan New Member

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    Here is 2 Tim 3:16, 17:

    Jyutping:
    Sing3-ging1 cyun4-dou1 si6 Soeng6-dai3 zi2-jan5 jan4 se2 haa6-loi4 dik1, deoi3-jyu1 gau3-dou6, zak3-bei6, gau2-zing3, on3 zing3-ji6 dik1 biu1-zeon2 si1-hang4 gun2-gau3, dou1 jau5 jik1-cyu3, 17 joeng6 sung4-bai3 Soeng6-dai3 dik1 jan4 jyun4-cyun4 sing1-jam6, zong1-bei6 cai4-cyun4, nang4-gau3 zou6 gok3-zung2 mei5-sin6 dik1 gung1-zok3。

    Sidney Lau:
    Sing³-ging¹ chuen⁴-do¹ si⁶ Seung⁶-dai³ ji²-yan⁵ yan⁴ se² ha⁶-loi⁴ dik¹ , dui³-yue¹ gau³-do⁶、 jak³-bei⁶、 gau²-jing³、 on³ jing³-yi⁶ dik¹ biu¹-jun² si¹-hang⁴ goon²-gau³, do¹ yau⁵ yik¹-chue³, 17 yeung⁶ sung⁴-bai³ Seung⁶-dai³ dik¹ yan⁴ yuen⁴-chuen⁴ sing¹-yam⁶, jong¹-bei⁶ chai⁴-chuen⁴, nang⁴-gau³ jo⁶ gok³-jung² mei⁵-sin⁶ dik¹ gung¹-jok³。

    The Cantonese Romanization Converter is quite handy for converting between types. Please let me know if there is any other verses, or chapters, or anything else that would be helpful to provide.
     
  6. iMatt

    iMatt Administrator Staff Member

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    How does this look? Apparently Sidney Lau uses the superscript numbers and the "-", but Jyutping in textbooks does not normally do the same?

    iPhone_7_Plus_—_12_4.png
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2020
  7. lechuan

    lechuan New Member

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    Hi Matt,

    That's looking great!

    I took a closer look regarding the separator and there doesn't seem to be a standard for separators between syllables in the same word. The wikipedia page on Jyutping is also inconsistent.

    I checked a few cantonese resources I use:
    CantoneseClass101.com: Uses a space to separate all syllables (ie. doesn't group together)
    A Shortcut to Cantonese (Greenwood Press): Uses to separate syllables
    Pleco Dictionary: Uses - to separate syllables
    Hong Kong Cantonese Corpus (https://corpus.eduhk.hk/): Doesn't use a separator

    One of the more academic books "Cantonese as a Second Language: Issues and Experiences and Suggestions for Teaching and Learning", 2019, edited by John C. Wakefield, says the following:

    "In Bauer and Wakefield (this volume) and Bauer (this volume) Jyutping is written with spaces between every syllable, e.g. 佢哋講廣東話 Keoi5 dei6 gong2 Gwong2 dung1 waa6/2 (“They speak Cantonese”); in other chapters, Jyutping is written with spaces between words (e.g. Keoi5dei6 gong2 Gwong2dung1waa6/2). The first way of writing Jyutping mimics Chinese writing, which is written as characters without spaces between words. This way of writing makes it easier to read each individual syllable. The second way, in contrast, shows which syllables combine to form words, which can be helpful to CanSL/FL learners who often have trouble knowing how the syllables are arranged into words. However, it must be noted that deciding how syllables combine to form words is often difficult in Chinese (see Bauer and Wakefield, this volume). Both ways of writing Jyutping were allowed for this book because Bauer’s (2017) dictionary, which is an essential resource for learners, writes Jyutping out as syllables, while other works write it out as words. This means teachers and learners will need to adapt, at least for the time being, to seeing it written both ways."​

    I personally like the "-" separator (used in Pleco, and same as Equipd does for Yale and Sidney Lau), but also wouldn't mind the way you have it written above.
     
  8. iMatt

    iMatt Administrator Staff Member

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  9. lechuan

    lechuan New Member

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    Thanks so much! This will be super useful to those of us whom are primarily learning with Jyutping!
     
  10. lechuan

    lechuan New Member

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    Just noticed a small bug with the released version for Jyutping with traditional and simplified chinese. Pressing the 2L button will toggle on/off the jyutping, but with the other romanization options the 2L button toggles on/off the characters.

    Also, Jyutping could be added to the 'about' page under chinese-specific features.

    Thanks again! This is great!
     

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